Faramir Fiction Archive

Oh, Nerey Camille, thank you so very much for this story! I’ve greatly enjoyed reading it, and it has left me in such a merry uplifted mood!

Er, I’m not exactly sure how to phrase it, for I’d rather not put spoilers in this comment… Ok, let’s say it like this: Aragorn’s reaction proves once again that he is a very wise man! :) You know, sensible about things :) And I’m sure a certain somebody had greatly benefited from it, too…

I also very much like your particular choice of confession – a thing like that, I think, Faramir indeed could have only fessed up under those sort of circumstances. Poor man, though, must have felt so guilty before everybody…

As for the choice of style, I’ll be frank, a comical note is not something I had expected to find in a response to this challenge – but in your story it fits perfectly, I think. Humour is direly needed when dealing with such sensitive matters… And your humour, I think, does not impair the realism of the story. I very much like that detail where Faramir allows himself a smug little smile when he recals what happened, and that Aragorn is revolted by that. I found that very… lifelike. And I thought that on the whole everybody is in-character, and making it a little light-hearted has in no way contradicted canon.

Once again, thank you so much for this story!

Yes, I it must have actually been his key reason. He knew the knowledge would make Aragorn suffer, yet he’d reckoned the suffering would be less than had Aragorn not known. I find it very in-character for Faramir that he had kept it to himself up to that point, even though it must have weighed on his conscience. Well, he may have acted out of kindness and sympathy and all that, and let’s hope indeed he could sleep at night, but still, in itself it was a rather questionable thing to do…
Which is to say, I’m ever so glad about the way things had turned eventually :D Frankly, I’ve been having a rather angsty period lately, so this tale was exactly what the doctor prescribed :)

Thinking of the details I especially liked – how Aragorn calls Faramir an idiot for saving him, that’s so endearing! And also, I very much like the ambiguity of the King-Steward relationship. It seems like friendship, but then that remark Aragorn makes about gentleness – that came across as something beyond friendship. And then the Queen’s last line – what exactly did she have in mind, I wonder…?

Ah, but you see, for people with dirty minds like mine, there are insinuations everywhere! :) Especially when it comes to Faramir and Aragorn… So that’s why I was wondering exactly what kind of arrangement Arwen was thinking about. You know, there could be possibilities…

Oh, and yes, I also absolutely love the new perspectives people give on one’s work. It often turns out a reader may find the most depth in some part the author had not even been sure about including. As for character motivation, I’ve found out that no matter how directly you write out somebody’s feelings/reasons, every reader would still interpret them differently. And that’s great, leaves space for discussion :)

Thanks for encouragement on my story! The next chapter is soon to be released, I assure you. And like you said in your last letter, knowing someone out there is waiting for your work is a powerful stimulus, so no worries about pressure.
By the way, I never said Faramir’s conduct with Aragorn wasn’t questionable ;) That’s why I love exploring the subject of infidelity (in writing, that is) – there’s always more than one way to look at any given situation. For example, it seemed to me that in your story Eowyn wasn’t much impressed by Faramir’s kindness and sympathy…

You know, that often happens to me also. First the characters in my story do something, and only post-factum, after doing some thinking, do I realise that this was the only course of action I could have imagined them to take. I love this post-writing kind of analysis, it can make you more aware of how you see the characters, and thus gives you so many more ideas for the future, right? :)

As for the punishment itself… You know, I personally never questioned this bit, either: it does seem totally like something she could do. Although I would rather not imagine the details, because I can’t without making myself either go O_o or laugh. Yes, he would have had to have given at least some sort of consent to it – I mean, he’s a strong man, he could have stopped her if he seemed it fit. Otherwise I’m getting this vision of Faramir crawling under the dinner table and Eowyn trying to drag him out by the ankle, brandishing her rolling-pin. Doesn’t sound right, does it now? But then the idea of being ‘consensually hurt’ brings to my mind all those furry handcuffs, studded collars, etc. – and that doesn’t seem quite right either… So let’s just say I’m with you on the fact that it was done, somehow, and perhaps it brought her some more general comfort that specifically punishing her husband for his excessive sympathy.

I love the idea of Eowyn having a bit of a grudge (even if not an entirely conscious one) against the male-kind. Personally, I don’t see it much of their fault that she felt disregarded and misundestood, though… I mean, of course I found tha scene tear-wrenching, when in the HoH Aragorn tells Eomer how she’d been unhappy and lonely for so long and Eomer’s like huh, I had no clue. But then again, she sort of brought it on herself, don’t you reckon? She’d always acted like this proud, strong girl who can deal with things, so little wonder the men around her, being far from sentimanetal themselves, took that to be the way she truly was. It is sad though that the first man who saw through it, namely Aragorn, had to reject her… But oh well, she brought that on herself too, I think: it was more than obvious he was not into her, and yet she did what she did. Ooh, guess I’m beginning to sound a bit anti-Eowyn here… Actually, what I was getting at is that probably poor Faramir got far more than his fair share of kicks (or whatever she gave him).

Anyway… The possibilities. Well, possibilities are endless :D It all depends on how liberal and versatile everybody is in their tastes, right? If we allow the idea that the men could… fit together – there you go, there’s a whole new array of arrangements for the four to try. Also, if we agree that Faramir has a dormant submissive streak in him (the consensual punishment, remember?) – now that also quite broadens the horisons. He could, for starters, get blindfolded or tied to the bed or both, and then the ladies would entertain themselves with him, while Aragorn… Er, if I’m to continue, I’m afraid we’d have to put an NC-17 on this comment. One last thing – do you think they have sex-toys in Middle-earth…? Oh, and one last-last thing, what if Eowyn’s culture is, say, a bit more buttoned-up when it comes to these things, so Arwen could teach her some spectacular new techniques…?

About Eowyn. Yes, if you come to think of it, this whole undercover act, what with sneaking to the battle, is a little odd. I mean, the men of Rohan did not seem much amazed to see her walk around in armour and volunteer to go on the campaign with them, and there must have been someone who actually taught her to fight – this leads me to think that her desire to be a warrior was not seen as fundamentally inappropriate, so indeed it is a little strange she had suffered in silence and never spoke up. Perhaps this is again an instance of her own pride making her life difficult.
As for her not having to get Aragorn’s permission. I agree, she did not require it – but, given she was in love with him, I think for her the point was that he be glad that she wanted to join him. And instead he acted like she was the embarrassment… Besides, when Aragorn told her she could not go with him, he did have a point: after all, Theoden did leave the civilians in her care, so it was pretty irresponsible of her to ditch it all and run to war instead. Also, her duty was not that humiliating: she was entrusted with a very big job, to assure for the well-being of all the people in Rohan, that’s pretty much an equivalent of a steward’s position, I think.

Now, I know this is going to sound mean, but to me she did come across as a bit of a drama queen. All this suppressed suffering and tears at night, then throwing herself at a stranger’s feet, then this whole ‘ah, he doesn’t love me, so I’ll go get myself killed’ thing, then ‘I was rejected, so now I don’t want anybody, I’d rather simmer in my own spite and die’. Don’t take me wrong, I do very much like her, and certainly admire her courage, and her decisiveness, and the passion with which she gives herself to whaever she chooses as her goal, but, to be frank, I was pretty surprised to find out she was 24 at that time, I had initially thought her to be more like 16… Of course, these is another way to look at it: instead of interpreting her actions as a result of her being proud, and peppery, and a little spoilt and immature at times, we could focus on how she’d been hopeless, and loveless, and desperate for all these years,and quite likely clinically depressed – and then Aragorn not wanting her was the last straw, and she snapped and went and did what she did…
But in any case, I had always thought it was just her incredible luck that she looked lovely in her sorrow, and our gentle-hearted Faramir was there to see it, and be swayed by it, and have the patience to talk her into falling in love with him. To be completely honest, ever since I was a little girl, it has irked me he married her: I had always thought a man like him deserved someone more sensible and balanced.

Like, Arwen… lol

It is very interesting that you bring up the question of Eowyn not being familiar with what a man in love would act like… If we come to think of it, what was her life in the romantic sense before the War? We know Grima stalked her, which must have creeped her out, of course. We also know she was described as cold and sort of not yet ripe for love, so we could assume Aragorn was her first real crush. But what about the other men in Rohan? She is pretty, she is noble – wouldn’t she have, like, a ton of suitors?

Ok, given she had feelings for Aragorn, she could have explained away the complete lack of action on his behalf with the usual ‘he is shy’, ‘he is not sure whether I like him’, ‘he does not know how to express his feelings’, ‘he is a stern man and is not used to tenderness’, etc. etc. But, in truth, his behaviour was not all that ambiguous, he did not send any mixed signals, as far as I remember. Of course, he was polite with her and even smiled at her (once!), but that doesn’t mean anything!

And… I can’t help but be intrigued by you describing Aragorn as a non-expansive lover. Why do you think that? It’s not a critisisim, I’m just really curious. I mean, we get very little information on how he is with someone he loves. And generally he is quite a versatile man, I guess. He shows that side of himself which is appropriate in the given situation. So who knows what he would be like in the bedroom…?

Arwen, now. You think she is a big idiot? This is very interesting… May I inquire as to the reasons why?
Although, to be honest, there are some things about her that unsettle me also – but I’d like to know your opinion first :)

Sorry it took me a while to get back to you on this. So here goes :)

Haha, I do adore the ‘violence of your discourse’. Sometimes I even feel embarrassed of myself because I too can get very violent speaking of these characters, and it’s so comforting to find understanding on this point. I mean, I love them all, but many of their actions rouse in me a powerful need for passionate discussion :D

So. About Eowyn. She did offer her company first – but Aragorn said no. Then she said she loved him – but still he said no. So then she fell to the ground and begged. Simply could not take no for an answer when her own mind was already made up that she was going with him. To me that is the clearect indicator of how depressed she was, that she even forgot about her pride. And of course she was depressed: she was in the care of the men of her family, but did they actually ward that creepy Grima off her? And why did they teach her to fight if no one expected that she would actually use the skill?

As for fatherly/brotherly permission. Well, I guess in the medieval culture they have in ME, it is indeed up to the father to decide what an unwed daughter does, or, if like Eowyn she has no father, then it’s the uncle, or the brother, or whatever male relative – and after she weds, the decision-power passes to her husband. Because, apparently, she does not work to support her own living, she does not have any money in her personal property – everything belongs to the family, they would only allocate her a dowry, if that is their custom; plus,she carries the prize of innocence between her legs, which all sorts of bastards would be after. So the men see their daughters as completely non-independent creatures in need of protection. Tough luck.

Besides, I doubt it the society saw any point in emancipating its women at large. Let’s not forget the sad truth that in such time as theirs, there was no efficient contraception and no medically sound abortions – and even if there were, I doubt it the culture would approve it – so once a girl was married, her chief function came down to popping out a baby every year or two throughout all her fertile life whether she wanted motherhood or not. And even if she was wealthy enough to hire maids to do all the laundry, nursing and house cleaning for her, still she would be too busy being pregnant and raising her flock to actually think about what she would have liked to do with her life – unless, of course, she just died of miscarriage, in child-birth, in post-labour fever, or because her milk-filled breasts got severely inflamed: again, no mass medicine. I know I’m painting a gruesome picture, but if the Middle-Ages in Middle-earth were anything remotely like in our world…

Even if we think back on Galadriel, who is so powerful and emancipated – she is no maiden, she is a married woman who has a granddaughter (and a Ring of Power). And even though it was obviously G who wore the pants in the house, still she let Celeborn sit at her side and act all big and lordly, she didn’t shove it in his face that she was the leader, she had the wisdom to do things subtly.

So, if Eowyn wanted to have freedom, tagging after Aragorn was hardly the smartest plan – to me it seems the best solution would have been to marry some high-born but soft-spined wimp whom she could get under the heel of her shoe, and then she would have weight in society and be her own boss. But for that she would have to be rational, and pragmatic, and cynical, and not give a damn what anyone thinks of her, which is clearly not her case…

Also, I think that what Aragorn meant by saying he needed Theoden and Eomer to give their ok, is that if he took her along without their permisson, it would cause her dishonour. I mean, she is an unmarried virgin, and going off with a bunch of men – come on, who would believe in her virtue after that? :D I think Aragorn just didn’t want to have to deal with that kind of responsibility :)

As for that he accepted Elrond’s authority in terms of waiting for the Elf’s permission to marry Arwen… Again, this was the way of things, and also, I think he did it out of respect and love for Elrond, and also out of wishing the best for Arwen. He loved her, so he wanted to give her the best he could, not the life of a roaming military wife of somebody who doesn’t even have his own house, but a life of comfort, and bliss, and respectability. I think he also wanted to give her children that would be proper princes to a real king, with a relatively secure future. But I don’t think it was easy or pleasant for him to spend the freshest years of his life in solitude and waiting, so he just learnt to deal with it in private…

Now, this brings us to the subject of Arwen…

She is 3000 and reputedly very wise, but I haven’t found any specific proof of her wisdom, like a single instance of her doing something incredibly wise… Moreover, just before Aragorn dies she tells him that she had always scorned the people of Numenor for how they had let the fear of mortality corrupt them, and only now, when he is going and she too will die soon, does she understand their plight. To me, that doesn’t come across as something a clever, sympathetic and merciful kind of person would think. Of course, it’s easy to feel contempt for those stupid mortals and their petty worries when one has a life of eternal youth – but that’s exactly where wisdom should have made her see otherwise, don’t you reckon? That bit in the Book had always greatly unsettled me… To think that Aragorn had spent his whole life with a woman who despised his people…

Also, it’s interesting how when he heals Eowyn, he says that what she did re the Nazgul had put her on a par with the great queens of the old – that remark makes me a little sad for him, because his own beloved had never, like you said, done anything like that for him.

I totally, totally agree with your point regarding Luthien. Actually, in a letter to another Tolkien-fan friend some time ago I had written pretty much exactly the same thing. And, if we think on it some more, remember how Luthien fell for Beren after he had wandered starving in a forest for a whole year, in a half-delirious state? He was stooped, and weary, and dressed in hell knows what, he likely had a bush of a beard on his face, and he probably stank, too. And still, she fell right for him, because, like you said, it was fate!

But Arwen. Actually, to me it always seemed she didn’t fall in love with Aragorn when she saw him at 20, she only said that perhaps she would one day repeat her ancestor’s fate (uh-huh, she had that thing back then already) – and fell for him only when she saw him in Lorien years later, when he looked impressive and decked out pretty like an Elven-lord. So what basically made the difference to her was the looks. If she had truly truly cared for him, not what he was, she would have felt the profoundest connection to him even when he was only an inexperienced boy, you see what I mean?

Besides, like you said, she had lived with such amazing people all her life. If all that mattered was style, take Glorfindel, for example. He actually glows with light – hey, that’s unbeatable, it doesn’t get any cooler than that!

So yes, Arwen does indeed unsettle me in many ways – although still I feel quite in awe of her, or at least she fills me with wonder. Because, after all, her heart did chose a mortal man whereas she could have had any Elven lord she liked… And I always cry when I read of how her life ended, on such a woeful note…

Ok, this brings us back to Aragorn. You say he’s somewhat dead inside… Personally, I think that Tolkien used such an official style in that scene for artistic purposes, same as he does when Eowyn comes to ask Aragorn to take her to war. But I do see your point, and I won’t say that I disagree with it entirely :) Aragorn had lived the first third of his life not as king, but as someone who was under a lot of pressure to become king, and he knew it was not his due, that he truly had to go out of his way to deserve it. So likely at least some of the pressure remained after he did get the crown, and he felt like he had to live up to the role… Actually, I very much like exploring the subject of the kingship weighing on him and making his life difficult.

I always perceived him as an extremely romantic person. How he fell in love at twenty, and for several decades lived solely on the few images he had in his head, before he even got to know Arwen at least a little. He told Galadriel there was only one thing he desired, aka to be with Arwen, everything else just came along with it. After he became king, he told Gandalf that if Arwen did not come, he would stay celibate for the rest of his life, and his line would end. (Now, of course we know he wouldn’t be celibate because, ahem, there was Faramir, but anyway…) Given all this, I think he could have actually been quite an expansive lover – just, you know, didn’t show that side of himself to the general public…

But, since you see him otherwise – I so much do wonder what Eowyn’s experience with him in your story was like… Ever consider fleshing it out? ;) Because I’m already working on the other couple in this story, would be sweet to compare… ;-p

Ok, our views on Eowyn are entirely different. I can’t possibly imagine her not being a virgin, honestly. In fact, I see her not only as innocent, but as rather clueless in this sense until Faramir gets his hands on her.

Her being described as cold when she met Aragorn, something like spring without warmth or something like that – I don’t remember exactly, to me it always suggested she had not yet known love. And for a maiden like her, romantic and idealistic, I can’t believe she would lie with a man without loving him, just for fun and to find out ‘what’s it like’. And then to cold-heartedly give her baby away for someone else to raise… I mean, is such sex worth such sacrifices, really? And frankly, I can’t see how Theoden or Eomer could possibly be ok with someone screwing her, and knocking her up, and then not taking the responsibilty… For ex, if Aragorn had lain for a couple nights with her, and then rode off to mind his own business – what, everyone would see that as ok? And to think that Faramir married a girl with whom someone else had already entertained himself – and then Eowyn comparing experiences, grading Faramir as a lover from 1 to 10…

Of course, we don’t know what were their views on sex. Medieval cultures in our own world differed quite a bit on this, and before the arrival of Christianity and its relatives, indeed they were often more liberal… In some it was perfectly fine for a woman to go through any nummber of sexual partners until she found the man she wanted to settle down with. In others there were many pagan feasts and rituals which would involve sex between non-married partners. We know very little of religious and sexual practices in ME, so of course everyone is quite free to imagine it whichever way they like – and that’s great :)

As for me – yes, I do have a strong feeling that in ME a girl would be expected to be pure for marriage – in fact, it would not surprise me if in Gondor or Rohan a marriage could be annulled if it were discovered that the bride had already been with a man…

Please, don’t try to convince me otherwise re Eowyn. I understand each of us has their own opinions, and has according reasons to ground these opinions, and it’s all right – but for me, if I were to think she was not a maiden when she met Faramir… I don’t know, her whole charm, and the charm of their love story, and their whole relationship – and even Faramir’s charm – it would be just lost to me. And I wouldn’t want that to happen, right…?

I really want to think of him as her first, who had bred warmth and trust in her heart, and introduced her to intimacy, and tenderness, and showed her what she had not known before. I too see him as quite a perfect character – and such a man, I think, would truly deserve to be her first…

I see we also have very different views on Aragorn, for to me it always seemed those were not just his views about what say a father has over the daughter’s life – to me it seemed this was the way things were. And the scene of F’s and E’s official betrothal – I always understood it as Eomer actually giving his permission for it, and him highlighting the point that Eowyn is doing this willingly meant to me that, had Eomer so wished, he could have made her marry F regardless. Again, all this is up to each reader’s interpretation…

All this difference in views makes me wonder then – what do you think were their views on adultery? And was it judged the same for a man who was unfaithful to his wife, and for a woman who cheated on her husband? In your story Aragorn finds a clever solution that lets everyone elude punishment – but in general, what do you think would have happened to Faramir and Arwen, or to someone else in their places?